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Post by The Original Kid Cairo on Oct 7, 2024 14:07:26 GMT -6
Mark Curtis and Tommy Young were the best. Tommy Young always found a way to miss seeing the guy getting thrown over the top rope. It gets old after a while. |
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Post by PositivelyJackref on Oct 7, 2024 14:09:44 GMT -6
Mark Curtis and Tommy Young were the best. Tommy Young always found a way to miss seeing the guy getting thrown over the top rope. It gets old after a while. :upscale()/2020/05/07/745/n/45101125/4d18912bc891e2d0_parks13.gif) |
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Ryansback
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Post by Ryansback on Oct 7, 2024 14:11:43 GMT -6
I gotta be honest: I'm not the biggest Tommy Young fan due to his insistence on putting the spotlight on himself at times during matches. It's the reason why I criticize the Hebners, Earl in particular (Dave was better than Earl). My issue with Nick Patrick was his feather soft tapping of the mat during counts. So many times where there would be a three-count but the crowd and the announcers missed it because Nick hit the mat so softly and no one could hear the count. Then you'd get the awkward moment where you're like, "Oh, I guess the match is over." For my money, Mike Chioda and Charles Robinson are tied for the best.  I have to admit, I had never thought about the mat count force impact of Nick Patrick. Going to need to let this one marinate a bit before responding. As someone who agrees with you over 90% of the time, I'm going to have to say OKC has a point here. I personally like Nick Patrick because I love to hate him. |
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Post by Positivity Peeps on Oct 7, 2024 14:12:53 GMT -6
I gotta be honest: I'm not the biggest Tommy Young fan due to his insistence on putting the spotlight on himself at times during matches. It's the reason why I criticize the Hebners, Earl in particular (Dave was better than Earl). My issue with Nick Patrick was his feather soft tapping of the mat during counts. So many times where there would be a three-count but the crowd and the announcers missed it because Nick hit the mat so softly and no one could hear the count. Then you'd get the awkward moment where you're like, "Oh, I guess the match is over." For my money, Mike Chioda and Charles Robinson are tied for the best. I have to admit, I had never thought about the mat count force impact of Nick Patrick. Going to need to let this one marinate a bit before responding. It's the almost double-clutch motion he uses when he counts. It completely messes with the rhythm. |
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Post by PositivelyJackref on Oct 7, 2024 14:13:28 GMT -6
He has a very good point. I just always liked that he was able to elevate the job of referee and become bigger than just the guy counting or taking well timed bumps for the heels. Evil Nick Patrick was fantastic.
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Post by The Original Kid Cairo on Oct 7, 2024 14:14:27 GMT -6
I will agree there, Jack. Nick Patrick was the best heel referee we've ever seen.
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Post by Positivity Peeps on Oct 7, 2024 14:15:22 GMT -6
I will agree there, Jack. Nick Patrick was the best heel referee we've ever seen. Dastardly Danny Davis would like a word... |
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Post by Ryansback on Oct 7, 2024 14:17:20 GMT -6
He has a very good point. I just always liked that he was able to elevate the job of referee and become bigger than just the guy counting or taking well timed bumps for the heels. Evil Nick Patrick was fantastic. I enjoyed when Evil Nick Patrick would get in situations where he just didn't know what to do because WCW was a god damn mess with 7 wild events that took place in 30 seconds which broke all the rules and he can't even figure out who the hell the legal men are. He just frantically looks around doing absolutely nothing with panic on his face. |
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Post by The Original Kid Cairo on Oct 7, 2024 14:17:22 GMT -6
I will agree there, Jack. Nick Patrick was the best heel referee we've ever seen. Dastardly Danny Davis would like a word... You're right. Damn. I legit forgot about Double D. |
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Post by Positivity Peeps on Oct 7, 2024 14:19:35 GMT -6
For the record, Nick Patrick did the heel gimmick better than Danny did. But Danny Davis was the first one I remember so he holds a place in memory.
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Post by randomone on Oct 7, 2024 14:43:15 GMT -6
I know Dave’s theory is the caliber of matches now are so above where they used to be that if you compared many matches he gave say 4 stars to back then, it’d probably be 3.5-3.75 stars today.
I know that will (and does) annoy long time fans, but you can’t deny that the quality of matches in WWE/AEW/NJPW etc really outshine those of a previous generation. Not ALL of them by any stretch, but many.
For what it’s worth, the Taker/Angle match I’d give 4.5 IMO.
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Post by November KS on Oct 7, 2024 14:54:17 GMT -6
I was partial to Connie Marker.
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Post by Positivity Peeps on Oct 7, 2024 14:55:13 GMT -6
Hogan-Andre is better than almost any match in the past 10 years.
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Post by The Original Kid Cairo on Oct 7, 2024 15:01:20 GMT -6
This is just a theory, but I think Dave's formula is "more athleticism = better match". I don't necessarily agree with that, although ratings are subjective.
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Post by Ryansback on Oct 7, 2024 15:01:20 GMT -6
I know Dave’s theory is the caliber of matches now are so above where they used to be that if you compared many matches he gave say 4 stars to back then, it’d probably be 3.5-3.75 stars today. I know that will (and does) annoy long time fans, but you can’t deny that the quality of matches in WWE/AEW/NJPW etc really outshine those of a previous generation. Not ALL of them by any stretch, but many. For what it’s worth, the Taker/Angle match I’d give 4.5 IMO. Dave forgot what star power, long-term booking, character building and storytelling within a match does for fans and how that affects the rating of a match. I absolutely can deny that the quality is better today in similarly rated matches, and those he rates higher. It hit me over the weekend what happened to Dave. He understood how great the movie Halloween was decades ago and rated it four stars - for basically all the things I mentioned. Turn to present day, and we come to find out Dave is a mark for the Terrifer movies, slasher films with instant gratification, little logic at time and missing the traits I mentioned. He’s a sucker for the moves (or kills), no matter how fake they look and then rates those movies 5.5 stars. |
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Post by The Original Kid Cairo on Oct 7, 2024 15:02:29 GMT -6
Hogan-Andre is better than almost any match in the past 10 years. I see your point, but I'd prefer Hogan-Rock for that analogy. |
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Post by The Original Kid Cairo on Oct 7, 2024 15:04:06 GMT -6
Nobody asked me, but I think Bret vs. Owen at Mania 10 is the greatest North American wrestling match.
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Post by Positivity Peeps on Oct 7, 2024 15:06:55 GMT -6
Hogan-Andre is better than almost any match in the past 10 years. I see your point, but I'd prefer Hogan-Rock for that analogy. That is definitely a better analogy. |
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Post by PositivelyJackref on Oct 7, 2024 15:07:21 GMT -6
To say that today's matches are a better overall quality than 20-30 years ago is just laughable. Dave obviously loves gymnasts turned wrestlers and bases his rankings on that over anything else.
Also we were having such a civil conversation over referees and it was pleasant. The best thing about this entire thread really.
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Post by The Original Kid Cairo on Oct 7, 2024 15:08:52 GMT -6
I see your point, but I'd prefer Hogan-Rock for that analogy. That is definitely a better analogy. Meltzer giving Hogan-Andre negative stars is still ridiculous though. |
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Post by Ryansback on Oct 7, 2024 15:13:14 GMT -6
Hogan-Andre is better than almost any match in the past 10 years. Boy that’s hard for me to agree with, even with everything I just said, haha! I’d have to think about that a bit. |
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Post by Ryansback on Oct 7, 2024 15:19:55 GMT -6
That is definitely a better analogy. Meltzer giving Hogan-Andre negative stars is still ridiculous though. Does he even do that shit anymore? If not, seems like a way to maybe reset things. We all agree there have been just as shitty matches now as there were 30 years ago. See Nia Jax. |
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Post by randomone on Oct 7, 2024 15:36:35 GMT -6
I can’t remember any negative star matches recently. I know there’s been DUDs.
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Post by Ryansback on Oct 7, 2024 15:52:38 GMT -6
We just need to get past this election cycle so I don’t get triggered. Dave behaves like Fox News for AEW and it triggers me to get more mad than I should. Dave wants you to think he’s Sheppard Smith when he’s actually Sean Hannity. The anger flows. Four more weeks…
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Post by The Original Kid Cairo on Oct 7, 2024 16:00:28 GMT -6
We just need to get past this election cycle so I don’t get triggered. This. I'm so burned out on all politics right now. Wake me up on January 20th. |
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Post by Optimisn on Oct 7, 2024 17:43:21 GMT -6
That is definitely a better analogy. Meltzer giving Hogan-Andre negative stars is still ridiculous though. Did he really? I've never given a shit about star ratings so I might have missed it. |
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Post by The Original Kid Cairo on Oct 7, 2024 18:28:48 GMT -6
Meltzer giving Hogan-Andre negative stars is still ridiculous though. Did he really? I've never given a shit about star ratings so I might have missed it. Yeah, Meltzer has Hogan-Andre at negative four stars. Meltzer was always famously anti-Hogan though so I can't really be surprised. |
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Post by Ryansback on Oct 7, 2024 18:32:42 GMT -6
Meltzer giving Hogan-Andre negative stars is still ridiculous though. Did he really? I've never given a shit about star ratings so I might have missed it. Here’s some more context. This is why I find the man completely untrustworthy. He’s incredibly biased who tries to position himself as a neutral historian/journalist. You can’t convince me that there was no hidden agenda by him to shit on the match the way he did. It wasn’t even the worst match of the night. “At the time, it received a negative four star rating from Dave Meltzer and the Wrestling Observer Newsletter named it the "Worst Worked Match of the Year." Meltzer would later increase his rating to one star.” |
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Post by randomone on Oct 7, 2024 19:07:57 GMT -6
While I don’t agree that it was the worst match of that year (there’s some fucking doozies on Prime Times in 87 that are on the Network), it was a terrible match from a wrestling standpoint. And that has to mainly do because one of the participants was damn near immobile and had back surgery (contrary to the Vince doc telling us he had surgery after the match, it was before) while the other was Hogan, who wasn’t about work rate in WWF, he was about the over the top showmanship.
My opinion was while the match itself, strictly the match, was bad, the theatrics behind it and spectacle made it historic. So for that, I wouldn’t have given it negative. I would’ve said 1 star or something.
It was a one move match, the bodyslam. The rest was whatever.
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Post by Positivity Peeps on Oct 7, 2024 19:12:30 GMT -6
It was 4 stars on today's scale simply for the spectacle and fan response.
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